Dunstanette, welcome to the show. Thank you. Can you tell me a bit about yourself? As you said Dunstanette, I'm Dunstanette Macauley and I was born in Liberia. I'm a Liberian citizen originally and my mother from Sierra Leone. So I'm from two West African countries. I went to school

in the British system in Sierra Leone because my father passed away just before I was born and my mom was a Sierra Leonean. She went back home. So we were raised in Sierra Leone. I went to school there, the oldest school in Africa, ⁓ oldest girls school, the Annie Walsh Memorial School, which was founded in the 1900s. And then I went to England. did my first degree economics at

Durham in the Midlands. went back, started working for the Minister of Agriculture. Then I went to study diplomacy in France. I did my master's diplomacy and then I became a diplomat. I served once in the embassy in Rome and then got married and came to Togo. I see. And so what prompted you to join Toastmasters? Well, I first heard about Toastmasters from a British friend.

And we met in England and she said, but don't tell anybody about Toastmasters. I said, no, never heard about it. I think you should start a club in Togo because this is what those Toastmasters does. I know you like talking, you like having conversations, you like doing speeches. That's the place for you. I said, really? Okay, let me get about it. So I read about it. And then one day I was given the Riverdale Press in New York.

and there was a Toastmasters meeting and it was right in my neck of the woods. So I walked to the Riverdale neighborhood house that evening, sat at the back and went through the meeting. But one thing I must say, I was never asked to introduce myself. So I went to like three or four meetings, mingled. But then there was an elderly lady who has passed. She remembered that I was there, she came to talk to me.

and we stayed really friendly until she passed away. She was always admiring me when I spoke, et cetera, when I did my speeches. And that club had existed for about 25 years before I became a member, but I was the first DTM. You were the first DTM? well done. Yes, I was. So I was celebrated by that club. That's awesome. How did you find yourself in New York?

Well, as I told you, I was born in Liberia and Liberians during the war had the special status in the United States to become permanent residents, etc. I bought a flat, but I always came back to Lomé because I started working in Togo in ECOWAS. That's the Economic Community of West African States. It's like the European Union for West Africa. I see. I was working there and I was living there here.

I had my two children, my husband also was a diplomat, who was sent to Congo, Zaire. So when I came back also from New York, again in the newspaper, I heard about the Toastmasters demonstration meeting. said, Toastmasters is following me. So I went to the meeting.

And then I became one of the founders because I had been in New York as a Toastmasters and I helped set up the club. And again, I was the first DTM in Togo. Wow. And was that the first club in Togo, was it? Yes, it was. What was the name of that club? Excellence. Toastmasters Club. And what language was And it produced all the leaders and most of the leaders in West Africa and all those who have positions in the district.

I Togo, the national language is French, right? Yes, is. with the club meetings in excellence run in French? Yes, they were run in French. OK. And so how does that work when they it comes to international competition? Because if you go all the way to the world championships, that's going to be run in English. the club contests run in English or?

No, can run according to the Toastmasters rules. You can run in your language up to the district level. I see. But to get to the international level, you have, it has to be in English. So I also opened the second club in Togo, Ka-Keli, which means light and it's an English speaking club. I see. And we have won three district championships.

and one has gone on to international. Okay, well, all right. So you can win your district level international competition in French and then go on, know, and your English may be, do you assess the person if they're going to have enough English to compete on the world stage? do not. No, no, no. It's the English speaking club, Kekeli, that produce champions in the Oh, I see. I see. Most of them

don't go up to this level interest. But now, because many, many, many people because of those methods have learned English and you have people from French speaking clubs running for international competitions in English. I see. I was reading in 2022 that Togo joined the British Commonwealth to expand its diplomatic, political and economic network and to forge

closer ties with the Anglophone world. Has this led to an increase in English speaking clubs in Togo? It certainly has. It was even said that on Fridays they should speak English at work everywhere. And Togo has a unique position. Togo was colonised by the Germans. when Germany lost the First World War, Togo was divided.

just like Cameroon, between Britain and France. So in Cameroon also they had French Cameroon and English Cameroon and they became the United Republic of Cameroon. For Togo, you had British Togo and French Togo. And when Ghana, the Gold Coast, became independent in 1957, there was a referendum which has always been contested.

anyway which says that those in British Togo wanted to join the Gold Coast and they became Ghana. So the border from Togo to Ghana is right in the capital, right in Lome. It's very interesting phenomenon. You see people walking across the border, not by car, they just walk because some of them really don't know about Togo and Ghana. For them they're going to

their villages in British Togo. So because of the proximity with Ghana, many people speak English. The older people who are speaking English and German. The younger ones, because of the internet, social media, they are very keen on speaking English. So speaking English in Togo is not a problem. Almost everyone you meet has a basic knowledge of English.

because also it was taught in schools and they learned English but they had to pursue speaking English. interesting. How many clubs are you, Toastmaster's clubs, are you a member of?

I'm a member of two clubs in New York and four clubs in Togo. They must keep you busy? Yes, indeed. Very busy. Sometimes I'm just tired. You could have the whole day something from Toastmasters, Toastmasters. And because I'm one of the most advanced Toastmasters, I'm always invited to do training, to take up roles. And I do. I do take up roles in clubs.

For me, Toastmasters is a passion. I'm passionate about it. That's wonderful. I've been at DTM four times. working on my fifth Four times? Holy dooley It's a lot. Yes. And here we are doing another Toastmasters related activity. Yes, yes. And I was in one before I came to you. And I have another one in the evening. well. So I think you're in quite a unique position, Dunstanette, to ask the next question, which is, given that you've been in,

clubs in Togo plus New York, and given that Toastmasters is originally an American organization, are there any differences you see between the Togo clubs and the American New York club? Yes, there are a lot. And once I was invited to speak on the magic of being number one in the world, because our district District 94 has been number one in the world

three times and it's always number two and number three. They really work hard for that. we, District 94 had a transformation about two years ago and now we have District 94 and 130 and they are almost ready again because there's a very fast growth. I see. Ah, I see. More in the French speaking countries.

Because as you know, for instance, I knew that my mother went to a meeting every day at quarter to five. You hear the car being turned on, she was going to a meeting. So I grew up in the world of meetings and associations. in Togo, not only did I start, was in the, those who started Toastmasters, I've started other international organizations like Zonta, BPW, et cetera.

Because the Francophones, just like in France, they don't have the culture of clubs and associations. But in West Africa and Central Africa, there has been so much enthusiasm to open clubs. Now, have in District 94, maybe 80 % of the clubs of the members are Francophones.

huh. Yes. There has been a big, huge growth in French speaking countries. Okay. So, so if I hear you correctly, the two of the biggest differences are the incredible levels of enthusiasm and growth. And the fact that most people are native French speakers. Are there any other differences in how the meetings are run or different sort of activities that might occur?

Well, yes and no, it depends on the clubs in New York. Some clubs really follow the rules, some don't, but one good thing, one thing that really surprised me, I was an area director two years ago because I needed a district position for my DTM. in in the C46, they are not enough volunteers to be area directors. It's amazing.

In District 94 in Africa, we have to have the leadership committee has to interview candidates. There are so many who want to be area directors. They're even ready to serve in New York as a wherever they could. There's so many who are eager and positions are limited. But in New York,

I have two or three of our past presidents have in my club, I've encouraged them to become Area directors. They're not interested. If you want to be a DTM, you have to have a district position. No. So that enthusiasm is not the same. But for the past two years, I'm mostly the district directors that we had two years ago. And now there has been a change. know, there has been a lot of

pushing and encouraging and motivation. So I think they might get more. Well, I'd love to experience that levels of enthusiasm. think what you're describing with New York is quite similar to here in Australia. You know, we just sort of managed to get area directors, but there's not a queue sort of thing. But I'm wondering what impact, if any, does the local culture have on club meetings in Togo?

They really, because keep an eye, they do keep to the toast master's rules. Maybe the dress code, they might have African outfits. And sometimes they might have maybe an African day, where the speeches and the...

The set up would be with an African touch, but mostly the meetings are held in the classical Toastmasters way. enough. But one problem, and I've been opening a lot of corporate clubs, I do love opening corporate clubs because at least I can ensure that the dues will be paid. Because I try to get the corporate firms

to know that joining Toastmasters will be part of human resources budget, your training budget. So they mostly pay for their members. But in the corporate club, one problem was like now, I have one I have to solve this. You have senior officers as members, directors. And when you have a speech and you have to be evaluated by a very junior member,

uh-huh. Was this a problem? And one of my clubs, the one who has been VPE, who's very enthusiastic, wants to become the president. I will say, will the officers and senior, will the senior professional staff remain if you have a very junior person as president? I will solve that. Yeah, tricky one.

my home club will have a Halloween themed meeting. I've noted that Togo has an annual Voodoo Festival every September in a village just outside Lome. Do you ever have a Voodoo themed meeting? No, never. Since it says that Voodoo is a religion and in Toastmasters, which is not...

It's non-confessional. So we don't have Voodoo. And Loma or this area is very Christian. You have Muslims and Christians. So that the enemies, they call it, local religion has never been brought into toast masses. But in Benin, you know, they have the Voodoo days. They just finished in Janya the Voodoo days in Benin next door.

Yeah, come from all over the world to attend. I don't know whether the clubs in Benin do have Voodoo themes, but I do not think so. What about in competitions? Do ever have voodoo dolls of your fellow Toastmasters competitors that you can I've never seen that. in any... mean, Togo Benin and Nigeria is where they have the Voodoo themes.

But I have never seen that in any meeting because I was governor. I went to Nigeria several times for meetings. I've never seen that. No, I was reading that. I was reading the concept of voodoo dolls and sticking pins in them as more of a Western popular culture thing that arose in the first half of the 20th century. I was pretty disappointed to read that because I thought that could be a really fun thing to do with your fellow competitors.

to take them out, you know, and it might have a few arms and arms, I'd imagine. I know, I know, but I have never attempted to revisit the voodoo market or the voodoo religion and like I was going to to Benin with the in-laws of my son, they're from Sweden, they wanted

go to the temple, the snake temple, I stayed out. did not go in. You know, I'm a participant in Episcopalian. I just do not go into it, you know, but I do have friends all around who talk about it, who try to convince me. But I do not like to discuss with them because you all get worked up. Which religion is better? I don't know anyone better. It's just what everybody has their faith.

course, it's yours, you know. I've never been there. Yeah. I mean, my ums and ahs have been a bit of a stumbling block for me. So I mean, at the very least, I'd like to think that that could be an excuse for me that someone's got a voodoo doll of me. But really, only got myself to blame. If you come to Togo of Benin, you would visit, you can visit the voodoo temples. If you Google voodoo days,

d-o-u-n, voodoun day, You will see lot of Europeans, Australians, Americans came to Benin. Okay. Interesting. can see they were giving them some of the culture. Your background, is that religious or just a beautiful background or is that an angel? that was actually my avatar for speech craft. It's more of a fantasy of mine to fly like a bird. Okay.

So, Dunstanette can you tell me about your rise to become Region 11 advisor? That's very high up in the organisation and about the work that you do there. you know, member of most people, start being a sergeant at arms, you go through the club level, you go through the district level, area director, etc. I went, I was not.

an area that I took. We started with the West African Territorial Council. In fact, I'm the only one who's still active in Toastmasters from the council. Because we were not a district, so we were a territorial council. So I walked through that, the three levels in the territorial council, and then I became governor. As I said to people right now, once you are in the trial, the trial, nobody runs against you as CGDPQ deal.

When I was there, I had someone running against me at every level. Even as the governor and I won. And I believe in competitions. It should not be just a walk over because you are a C.G.D. will not automatically become a DC director. So if there is a competition, if people want to compete, they should have the chance to do so.

Yes. So after going through that, I had been a governor and I wanted to be a regional advisor because I had seen someone like Morag, I admire a lot, past International President Morag. Yes. She was area director. She was Regional advisor. She helped us so much when we were just a baby district. And I said she really knows all the rules and documents.

in Toastmasters So if I'm in need of something, I write to Morag. She's my encyclopedia. Seeing how she worked, I wanted to become a regional advisor like her. And I applied. The first time I did not make it, though. The second time I did. And that was a great experience. Because I was covering Africa and the Middle East.

area. Now we have like two areas because that was the whole of Africa, west, east and central and southern Africa. So when you are you cover all and then also in the Middle East, all of the Middle East from Saudi Arabia to Bahrain to Qatar to Oman, all of all of it. And did you travel to those places? Did you travel to those places in your role? Yes, I did.

I went to almost every country except Saudi Arabia. But it was difficult because of the distances and of course, Toastmasters has the cheapest fare. So most times you arrive at 4 a.m. and you had a workshop at 11 o'clock in the morning.

was told we didn't need a visa with the US passport and then a week before I was told I needed a visa. It was too late to try to get a visa. So I to the other countries. Most of them you could have the visa at the airport, Bahrain, Oman, Qatar, all of them you can have the visa at an arrival. And there again there was a lot of passion for Toastmasters Really, I visited a...

and all women's club in Dubai. The Divas of Dubai, call them the Divas, and I was really impressed. They all women. It started in the morning at nine o'clock, and they started at nine a.m. prompts. They were on time. They were all wives and professionals, doctors, teachers, engineers.

and it was a lovely club, Women's Club. And I got that idea to Lome also, tell them about this All Women's Club. And in Togo we have two All Women's Club. In Côte d'Ivoire many countries have had All Women's Club. And I got that idea from Dubai. I see. And with the All Women's Club in Dubai, I know that there's quite a big expat population in Dubai.

Was it mostly locals or mostly expats or a combination of both? It was mixed combination. had a lot of, as you know in Dubai you have a lot of Indians. There were a lot of Indians, but you also had a lot of local members. And also I went in Qatar also it was mixed, locals and non-locals, non-nationals.

I remember I had to make a speech at the university to do something. I was there. I googled a lot of things to say hello, thank you, etc. And the first phrase I did was in Arabic. they said, oh, she is so intelligent. She's so brilliant. can speak Arabic. It was a lot of fun. And this is what Google does. Google helps you to speak in a language. But it makes a difference. When you can greet.

in the local language and say thank you or goodbye in the local language. 100%. And it was all on Google. Yes, 100%. So it sounds like you were very impressed with the All Women's Club in Dubai. I was. How did that differ from like a mixed-gender sort of club? And what were you so impressed with? Well, that particular club, one, they started on time. The meeting was very professional. And the alt

They respected the timing and everything. There was only one man, and that was the division director who went with me. No, it was the Governor And he went with me and he sat at the back quietly. I just enjoyed the way they conducted their meetings. And afterwards, they had tea and the chatter, etc. And they were all gone at 10.30.

one and a half hours in the morning and everybody went and then they left to go home. Almost every member was there at the meeting.

I just love this. That's why I call the women to have here in Togo, we have two women's club. How did they go? It's working very well. They opened the first one. It went so well, they opened the second one. So they have Winnigong one and Winnigong two. And Winnigong in the local language here means grandladies. That's the name of the club. Oh, love that.

Like the tip of I enjoyed my year as a regional advisor. I think it was really good. I learned a lot. I'm very multicultural in my outlook and I got to learn a lot about cultures from around the world. I love it.

So talking about women's clubs, you mentioned before you also work with Zonta, which is an international women's organization. Obviously, that's not directly related to Toastmasters, but we're in isolation, aren't we? We have these different aspects of our lives and they impact on other aspects of our lives. Has Toastmasters impacted upon your ability to get the role in Zonta and to work in the role? Yes, yes.

A great deal. was, I Zonta is older than Toastmasters Zonta is a hundred and seven years old. I started in New York, in the United States like most international clubs. I was a member of the board. I went to school up to the level of the board and even ran for Vice-Igan for the post of

position of vice president in Australia. At the convention in Australia, yes. so Zonta also has a lot of training. Zonta International, Toastmasters and other international organizations meet the president, the international presidents. They connect. For instance, the timing machine that is used at Zonta conventions is from Toastmasters.

⁓ didn't know that. Interesting. And once I was running for the nominating committee, I was chair of the nominating committee, and I did my three-minute speech. Of course, off the cup, I didn't have any notes. I finished. I did win, but then someone came to me and she said, are you a toastmaster? I said, why? He said, because you spoke with no notes. And you were the only one who spoke like that.

And she was a Toastmaster. Yes, yes. When you are a Toastmaster, you avoid the ums and ahs etc. People can look at you and say, why does she speak this way? And this prompted me, in fact, to open a club because people saw what was happening and they wanted to change their lives as I told them my life had been changed. And at the district level in Zonta, I do a lot of training.

At every DC conference I do training because they know I have a lot of background in training with Toastmasters. But one thing I liked is the moments of truth. I wrote to Toastmasters to ask whether I could adapt it and use it for Zonta And I was given permission to do that. And I did moments of truth. This is what they love most of all and every time they're calling me because

moments of truth giving makes you stop and think what you're giving to your members. Yes, yes. And makes you learn how to encourage your members, how to award them for what they do. Okay. So that is what I've taken to Zonta and the knowledge of training, etc. Interesting. That was one of the most valuable things they saw in it. That's interesting. Yes, yes.

I don't know where you find the time for all this, Dunstanette it's amazing. But you also, I'm aware, like shortly after I met you at the World Championship of Public Speaking in 2024, you were then trying to campaign for the, to become an international director. Can you tell me a bit about how that campaign went? Well, the first thing was it was difficult to get people from all over the world to work with because I wanted to have an

an international campaign team. Those are my district. had many, but I wanted it to be international so I could learn from the different countries and it wasn't easy to get them to work. But then I was someone I met also at the time I met you. Yeah, she was, he was from India and he couldn't be in my team. And he suggested some others. And I was a young girl from India.

She had been in Toastmasters for two years. She was in my campaign team. Really? Well. was so effective. I didn't understand her. I said I give Toastmasters memorabilia from a convention to her. Well. She was always there. I said, what time can we talk? She said, ma'am, anytime. If you tell me I'm sleeping, I'll wake up. She was so good. Thank you. She would say, what do you like me to do? Like, I want you to put the government documents.

She would read, she had to do a resume. The board of directors meetings, she would read through and do resumes so I could see all of them. She was so cool, so effective. And I said, I wish you well. I know you will rise up in Toastmasters. And I know she will because she had only been Toastmaster for two years. Now it's four years, but she was very committed. The campaign is...

It's quite difficult. You have to have the website before you have to take it out, take it down in 24 hours. If you're not selected, that's a lot of I think it's a lot. I think it should be made in Zonta There's no campaigning. There's less rules. I see no campaigning is forbidden. OK.

When you go to the convention, you have to convince people with your speech. And then you have to the candidates. When members could come and ask questions, that's all. So it's less difficult. Only for international director in Toastmasters, that's the only part. The only side of Toastmasters that I don't like personally, it's...

But in some it's heavy, I don't think. see. What can I ask the name of the Indian Toastmaster that was supporting you? I can send it to you, because I don't know whether I should give her name. Because of privacy, could send you her name. Okay, maybe get her permission. That'd be great. Yes, I know she wouldn't mind, but let me ask her. Yeah, yeah, fair enough. Fair enough.

And so do think you would campaign to be international director again? No. I think I've moved on from that. don't think I'm not. I think I could serve those masses more by not being an international director because of all the rules and all the red tapes. Now I could go to any club, any region. I'm a member of an online club and you could just speak and help to

to share the Toastmasters story, to promote Toastmasters and get more members. I think that's my vocation and I like that. And I think I'm more useful not being on the board, than being on the board. Okay, fair enough. Dunstanette do you have a favorite Toastmasters experience?

I think my favorite experience was when I was governor. we were just beginning. And we had this conference in Togo. We had worked hard to do the publicity, to get sponsors, it's not just us, it's an international president, past international president, John Lau, was coming.

to our conference who was so excited that he really helped us a lot at the conference. He was received by the president of the republic and he tried to tell him about the benefits of being a toastmaster and having toastmasters in his government, etc. But once members were always late at meetings and John Labose said, have never ever

seen toastmasters come to meetings so late. So that was an experience because having an international president and delegates and members coming late to meetings, that was a terrible experience. But a good part of it was that he was going to visit Benin and a toastmaster was a minister. And when we got to the border, we had

We had the spot riders and siren. I the international app. was like, wow. I hope my president does not hear about this. Because we had the siren and the spot riders from the border until we got to Cotonou That was an experience. That was an experience because you had two smashes on the windscreen of the car.

And people were looking and wondering what was happening. He had his Toastmasters banner. It was really a good experience and he was well received and I'm sure for him it was a very good experience. Well, that sounds amazing. So where to from here, Dunstanette? Have you got any plans in your Toastmasters journey?

just opening clubs. Opening more clubs. Yes, I got the Presidential citation in 2016. Uh-huh. Well. know what it was? Promoting Toastmasters, opening clubs. And I continue opening clubs because I really want everyone to benefit from this great experience that I have. Yeah. And if you do so by being a Toastmasters. And I think there is a lot of

work to be done in Africa. There many areas waiting to know about Toastmasters. So I really want to work on that. And even in New York, I would like to open another club. You know, I've been talking to a pub just opposite my house in New York about Toastmasters. I think we can it here and have a Toastmasters club. I would like to see how that would work.

But yes, and then I'm still working on another DTM because I see pathways is so good, especially the new enhanced pathways. I just keep learning. think I don't want to go through a deal without learning something new. And on pathways, you're always learning, learning, learning. So I'm still working on pathways. I don't want to get in this DTM. I only have to finish one more path because I have a lot of sponsor and

mentor credit already. But the only thing I don't have that I will have to have is a district role. So I have to be an area director again. But I cannot be an area director in District 94 in Africa, because competition is great. And I would not like to take the position from a younger person, someone who needs it. I'd like to be an area director again in in my district in New York. I see.

So in Africa, do you see any particular countries as being areas of the greatest kind of growth potential? Yes, but I have to answer that question for the magazine. I'm going to get this potential right now. mean, the greatest, the fast growing countries now are Cote d'Ivoire, Guinea and Togo. Okay. And the potential for growth, honestly, that's a bone in my throat, that's Sierra Leone.

Sierra Leone. is the only English speaking country in the whole of Africa that does not have a toast master's club. that right? Okay. And that's where your mother came from, I think you said before. Yes, I've been working on this for the past eight years. Anyway, I can see the end of the tunnel, I can see the light and I hope by April we'll have one corporate club, the first corporate club.

and we have two others that are in the pipeline. So, Sierra Leone. we need to focus, even the decision was to focus on Sierra Leone because it's English speaking and it's a country where people like to speak, people like to use Shakespeare's language, people's words, etc. So, I think that's an area of growth and that's

where we're all working on. Both the district and I personally am working on Sierra Leone. I would love to hear them quote some Shakespeare. That'd be very entertaining. think that'd be awesome. Well, thank you so much for your time today, Dunstanette. It's been an absolute pleasure. It's been a pleasure chatting with you too, Brendan I know you've regarded me for so long. always busy. I'm always caught up in something. And I said I have to make

time for Brendan today. very much appreciate it. It's been a pleasure.