SPEAKER_00 0:00

I kind of uh chose an all-green outfit to remind myself that I should not once it hits green, I should try to make sure I'm wrapping up. No, literally, literally, it was it was a color signal to myself. And I was like, once once the green light goes off, you know, you need to be looking at how you're wrapping this up.

SPEAKER_02 0:20

I'm thinking you're a bit late for St. Paddy's Day if I see you in a green dress at that point, you know.

SPEAKER_00 0:25

So yeah, there was that. Gosh, how was it?

SPEAKER_02 0:41

Hi, my name's Brendan O'Sullivan, a Toastmaster from Brisbane, Australia. Welcome to my Toastmasters World Tour podcast. Please join me as I travel virtually around the world and chat to Toastmasters from different countries and all walks of life. Let's explore! For this episode of Toastmaster's World Tour, like a flightless Kiwi bird, we're still virtually in the land of the Long White Cloud, in its capital, Auckland, New Zealand, chatting to Netmi Gala, listening to hear the conclusion of the same chat started in the last episode, and hear about her experience in the recent New Zealand North District 112 evaluation contests. Let's learn from her how to do a good evaluation and the benefits when applied to our life outside of Toastmasters. You didn't have to be able to do that. You got this random email saying, Would you like to join a global online evaluation contest?

SPEAKER_00 2:06

Yes. I was so intrigued, such a novel idea.

SPEAKER_02 2:09

So we had someone from Africa and we had someone from Europe, and you were representing Oceania, and then we had judges from North America and Asia. So all bar South America and Antarctica covered by that global feel and feel like we were getting people around the world. How did you find that meeting and that process? Did it was it helpful?

SPEAKER_00 2:33

So how did I find I'll go to how did I find it first? It was I'd never done an online sort of evaluation before. I was out of it for the whole COVID period. So I never got to experience those online meetings. And so it was a very strange feeling to just not be able to just see the person in front of you. And then I think it was great to hear other evaluators like globally how they approach it and their analysis. It was a super fun thing to do. I think, in terms of it being helpful, I think it reminded me that if I have my notes anywhere near me, I will go over time. It really re-emphasized to me to stick to my guns with the no notes, and that not every idea I scribble down on my piece of paper needs to be said. It was a really great experience to just listen to the auditory part of the speech because we evaluate both typically, the the body language and what we're hearing throughout years, and how those two work together to give a great speech. And so it was really a challenge to just isolate that and focus really you're only left with speech structure and uh how are you using your voice to paint the picture? So that was a really great challenge. It really made me zoom in on structure, on how do we specify vocal variety and in what ways can we use it? And instead of just saying, Oh, vocal variety, actually getting down into the nitty-gritty of how is that applied, you know, character voices, pushing scenarios, using different pitch-pace pause, all of that. And in terms of usefulness, like I said, I I think it was a really apt reminder, a really timely reminder about time and time management. I was taught by Jill Nort that by the time the green light goes on, you should have already been through your first recommendation. But that was not the case for me. I think I got into my substantive point way too late. It was a good reminder of time management. So really it it helped me out quite a bit because it put me back in, it snapped me right back into focus before the district competition.

SPEAKER_02 5:02

So just for the sake of our audience who may not have listened to one of the previous episodes, as an audio podcast, we had the test speaker audio only. That's why competitors couldn't see uh or evaluate any body gestures or anything else other than the audio. The other aspect to this uh online evaluation contest that was different to a normal official Toastmasters evaluation contest was that we had judges that not only judged it, but they gave feedback on how they judged it. Yeah, that was useful. So that was something a little bit different. Uh how did you feel about that side of it?

SPEAKER_00 5:44

It was it was actually really valuable to, and again, from a global perspective, it's it's interesting because I feel like each area, each division, each district has its own little subculture of how do they like to do their evaluations and what do they consider to be really important for it? It's so it's super interesting that sometimes even culture can affect an evaluation. The the feedback around, I think my main feedback from the ones that I'd heard was just a little maybe too verbose at times, which is fair enough because I went over time. And I think Louisa made the point about you know that professor style evaluation where you're sort of setting up and framing the evaluation piece. Um, and I thought that was a fair comment. Um, I think it's a stylistic thing for me. It almost always orientates me to the structure, particularly because I'm going in without notes. I almost fall back into this is the type of speech that I we're looking at, and what a fat, you know, what a fantastic, entertaining story that we've heard. Uh, and what makes a great storyteller. I'm gonna look at this and this, and let's jump straight into the first commendation. This is this is why it's good. And then I that's how I frame up my evaluation, and it gives me direction and keeps me focused when I'm speaking. So it was a great point to make, I think, in terms of she also made a point, I think, for one of the other evaluators to remove the I statement from it in terms of like how they're relating to the speech so much, like there was a lot of opinions about you know, this is how it relates to my life. I I sometimes tend to do that in my evaluations as well. I'd try to throw in a joke or two, and you're just eating up time, right? So that actually really helped because I could feel myself start to do that in the competition. And I remembered Louise's words, and I thought to myself, I thought to myself, no, no, no, no, no. This is adding no value, this is adding no value. Take it out, take it out and get straight into it. Um, so so while I didn't really change my style, and she would probably still tell me I was being a little professor-like, her recommendation really pushed me to cut the fat out of my evaluation and just make it like I was told by the audience that I had spoken to after the competition that it was very information heavy, my evaluation, but it didn't feel dense, so to speak. It there was a lot of content, but it was all it kind of all came out through smoothly. And I I will credit Louisa for that because her words really made me pause and think and vow like weigh every word that I put in to decide whether or not that was necessary for the evaluation and whether that is gonna serve a speaker receiving that evaluation. So that that sentence was in my head the entire time. Is this serving the person listening to it? If it is not, take it out. Um yeah, so that that was great.

SPEAKER_02 8:35

If you can take one message that's really sunk in, it's been super worthwhile, hasn't it?

SPEAKER_00 8:39

Yeah, yeah, it has. And and thank you, Louisa, for that.

SPEAKER_02 8:43

So you went on to District 112 conference on the weekend and you won the evaluation contest. Congratulations. Thank you. A little bit about that.

SPEAKER_00 8:52

Oh my gosh. I kind of uh chose an all-green outfit to remind myself that I should not once it hits green, I should try to make sure I'm wrapping up.

SPEAKER_01 9:03

I'm gonna pick up on that. That was the signal.

SPEAKER_00 9:06

Literally, it was it was a color signal to myself, and I was like, once once the green light goes off, you know, you need to be looking at how you're wrapping this up.

SPEAKER_02 9:15

I'm thinking you're a bit late for St. Patty's Day if I see you in a green dress at that point, you know.

SPEAKER_00 9:20

So yeah, there was that. Gosh, how was it? It I think the entire conference, it's my it was my first Toastmasters conference. Kevin Prohl and Steve Vale really promoted it quite a bit, and I was heavily influenced. And I decided to buy the three-day conference ticket, and I went to every single event I could, and it was it was great, it was a little socially draining, but it was it was really great. I met some fantastic people, saw some really high-level speeches, and what gutted me a little bit, and it's a double-edged sword because if you're going last, you either have time to freak out more or collect yourself. I think I did a little bit of both, and um I didn't get to hear any of the other evaluators. So that was my saying is, and I think I said it under my breath at division. The moment I finished, I was like, okay, done competing, time to learn. When I sat back down after I finished competing, the first thing I do is I take out my notebook and I'm ready for the next competitor to come out and give their evaluation. Um I can always learn from how they're gonna do that evaluation. So I was a little bit gutted that I didn't get to even hear one one person give that um their aversion and their interpretation of that speech. But yeah, I I think the whole experience was surreal. I kind of just when I get into I'm I'm a little bit of a nervous person when it comes to this kind of stuff before the event. Once I get into the event, I kind of lock in and then I shut down everything that has nothing to do with the competition, including my own thoughts sometimes, and I just I lock in. I don't know how else to explain it when it push comes to Shovitz Crunch time. I kind of just everything just comes into super laser focus, and I just I just do it somehow. I I don't know how to explain it. Well, here's what I'll say. And I think some of the Toastmasters members at Auckland Toastmasters might think I'm a little bit crazy for this, but every meeting I go to, I will evaluate every speaker and every evaluation. And I have my little notebook, my big notebook that I go up to people with like saying, Hey, do you want extra points? And every time somebody gets up to speak, even if it's not my role, I am practicing that analysis. And then I'm comparing what I've done to the evaluation of the proper evaluation of it, that that person, there's another person whose role that is. And so our club gives like six to seven speeches. It's seven speeches that I get to practice on, and then seven evaluations. So it's 14 times a night every fortnight that I will be practicing that skill. Because otherwise, you might not get to be an evaluator for at least maybe once a month or something, you know? And so if something gets missed or I feel like maybe there's another perspective, I'll go up to that speak and say, hey, I've done a little mini evaluation. Do you want some feedback? And then I get to practice saying that to that person, right? So it's a muscle memory thing. And I I I've done that even in my old club, and it's it's something everybody in varsity used to kind of do, I think. Everybody used to take notes, and it was just a natural thing for me to do. So even though I say it was like my third evaluation at the club competition, in reality, I had been practicing that quite a bit. And so when I sort of lock in when a competition happens, I feel like it's just that muscle memory kicking in, and there's no time for nerves, it's just it's another speech. I'm at club, I'm just evaluating. And that kind of just focuses me in. And I feel like a lot of the times, even in Toastmasters meetings, we get so fixated on this is the role I've been assigned that we forget that we can practice other things at the same time. Because let's say you're table topics master, you don't have to be active until the latter part of the meeting because all your work's been done before the meeting, right? You've chosen your questions. So if if I'm Table Topics Master, what's stopping me from do just writing an evaluation for the speakers that are coming up? Nope, nobody's gonna know if I don't tell them. And I did it, I was Toastmaster yesterday, and I still did those evaluations because I thoroughly enjoy the practice of it and analyzing somebody's speech. So it's a fun thing for me, a nerdy fun thing, but I feel like it just helps. The more you do, the more you practice, right? The easier it becomes.

SPEAKER_02 13:40

I'm amazed. I've met many very, very passionate Toastmasters. We call them tragics here because they're kind of like Toastmasters, they live and breathe it, and they're sometimes involved in many, many clubs.

SPEAKER_00 13:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 13:55

But I don't know that I've met anyone who's quite so passionate about evaluations as you are. Not just when they're assigned the role, but they're doing it. So no wonder you're not.

SPEAKER_00 14:06

No, I'm only there, I'm only there for two and a half hours every fortnight. Yeah and and John Favela said this as well, and I really, really agree. You know, you're part of a Toastmasters club, even if you don't have a role, turn up, be present, you will learn something. And I kind of took that a little bit further and I thought, well, turn up and do something. Um, you might as well. And and and if you especially at a club like Auckland Toastmasters, where the level is just so high, if I'm if I do an evaluation and I compare it to the evaluator who's giving an evaluation, I can see what I've missed, right? And and and then I learn something then and there, and and it's recorded in my notebook. And I on the day of the competition, maybe like 20 minutes before we went in, I took out that notebook and I just read through a few pages to just lock in all the wisdom from all the members, and it really helps. It gets you in the zone.

SPEAKER_02 15:05

Well, you're very diligent.

SPEAKER_00 15:07

Yeah, yeah. You can say it. I'm a nerd.

SPEAKER_02 15:11

No, no, it's that's fabulous. I'm I'm very humbled by it. I'm feeling lazy at this point.

SPEAKER_00 15:17

No, hey, hey, I haven't made it to the gym in two weeks. There's different ways to be lazy.

SPEAKER_02 15:22

I gather that you when even when it's not your role to be the evaluator, you will sometimes then approach the person and offer to give them your uh evaluation. Oh, we are usually well received or yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 15:34

And this is the the part about Toastmasters I really love because um if I go up to my friends and be like, Do you want some unsolicited advice? I'll tell me to F off, right? Sorry, if I'm on I didn't swear, but I don't know if I can get graphics. But in Toastmasters, literally everybody is there to grow and and they are so receptive to any bit of feedback that can they can get, myself included. So I've been really lucky. Both the Toastmasters clubs I've gone to, all the members are keen beans, but I always ask, I always approach with the book in front of my face, like, hey, do you want do you want some extra points? And I think they're used to me doing it now, so they're kind of like, yeah, sure. But yeah, it's super, and this is the the people management side of me coming out a little bit where I kind of was a trainer within the team. I absolutely hate to see wasted potential. When I look at somebody, I can I can see, especially like Toastmasters, you're like, I can see straight away these are the great strengths that you have. And then you've got these one or two things that are holding you back a little bit. You know, if I can tell you you're doing this really well, here's one small thing that I think you can change to just really boost that. I really want to give that feedback on because I want to see them improve and it gives me, I don't know, a really great feeling to see that person then apply that feedback and then just grow before your eyes. It's it's such a rewarding thing to see. And I love to see it at work, and and it's the same kind of thing with Toastmasters. You're just seeing people constantly evolve. And if you can be part of that journey, for me at least, it's it's a very rewarding thing.

SPEAKER_02 17:10

I think what you're doing is brilliant. You're asking permission first, which is also fabulous. Have you ever had unsolicited advice in your life that you didn't appreciate?

SPEAKER_00 17:18

Um, from from my parents. We're cycling back to the yeah, look, no, I love them to bits. I love them to bits. I think there have been moments where there's there are things that are hard to hear. I one of my best friends, Jules, and another person I met at varsity Toastmasters, and I think her family's like adopted me at this point. So again, Toastmasters really changed the trajectory of my life. I wouldn't have had like one of my best friends if not for Toastmasters or my job. We were having a chat at one point, and she was explaining a situation she was in. And I was like, Why didn't you call me to talk about this? You know, I would have thought you'd reached out to say something, and I remember her, I can't remember the situation, but I remember what she said. And she says, Nethne, you're not the friend I call to vent to. Uh you're the friend I call if I need a solution for something. And I was, I remember thinking, oh, what? Because I want to be there for my friends, right? But she it was hard to hear. Um, and I don't know if it's unsolicited advice, it was definitely feedback. I wasn't expecting to hear it on that afternoon, but it's a great thing about having long-term friendships, right? You can be real with them. And as tough as it was to hear, I had to take a step back and go, she's actually very right. I'm a very solutions-oriented person, and that makes me great at work because I'll be like, Yeah, that's that's broken, let's fix it. But in terms of like relationships and communication, sometimes people just want to be heard, yes, right.

SPEAKER_02 18:49

100%.

SPEAKER_00 18:50

And I realized at that moment I wasn't listening, listening, I was listening to respond. So it I immediately went into that analytical part of my brain, um, and not the the emotional, limbic, whatever part of my brain that controls that that human response. So uh yeah, that was some feedback that was tough to swallow, but it was very accurate, and it has driven home sometimes, not sometimes all the time, I need to just as hard as it is for this chatter box. Sometimes I just need to pause and listen and receive and give back open-ended questions to the person so they can continue to expand on their point, and then when they invite the reflection and when they invite the opinion, then give it instead of just giving it at the start because they're not always looking for a solution. Sometimes people know what they want to do, they just want to talk it out.

SPEAKER_02 19:48

I love that humility and self-reflection and insight. You are wise beyond your years.

SPEAKER_00 19:53

No, you know what? I've got a good group of friends who keep me humble. That's that's what I'll say.

SPEAKER_02 19:58

Is that what it is? Would you say that you're an introvert or an extrovert, Nathanie?

SPEAKER_00 20:03

Oh, and this this was asked at the conference, by the way, um, as well. And a few people asked me this question, they'll they were all surprised and they didn't believe me. But by the true definition of it, I am an introvert. I would say I'm a high functioning one, but if I could choose to spend how I would choose to spend my time would be on my own. That is when I re-energize. And it's it's interesting because I ended up being a people manager, which means I have to talk a lot and I have to be with people. People fascinate me. It that that is definitely true, and I love to hear perspective and I love to hear their stories, but I get to a point where the social batteries drained a little bit. So that that definitely happened with the conference. Met some lovely, lovely people and had some really great chats. But by Sunday evening, I was completely like fully drained, and I needed to spend maybe like the rest of that night kind of just staring into space or reading my book to recharge. But I have to say, as I've gotten older, I've gotten a lot more comfortable being in those situations where you have to talk a lot. I'm very good one-on-one with people that that doesn't drain me as much, but large crowds and having to talk to multiple people at once and switch from one conversation style to another, that really does drain my energy. But I think it's worthwhile. You get to meet people, you get to make a difference. So it's interesting. It's an interesting dichotomy. I don't know if it's an irony, but it's it's definitely a strange mix.

SPEAKER_02 21:38

Yeah, I'm not sure. To me, it's sounding like you are an extrovert, but that you're just burning so brightly that you burn out and need a rest.

SPEAKER_00 21:45

No, um I'll wait for this. When I was younger, my mum would always say that I didn't like to get close to people. I didn't like to be picked up unless I wanted it. Um so if people came to me, I'd just be like, no, leave me alone. Unless I wanted something, then I would go up to them to like pick me up. So I think I had those tendencies from a young age. But yeah, I guess it's just human nature, I guess, can be conflicting at times. And it's just important to recognize when you're getting to that point and just recharge.

SPEAKER_02 22:18

Yep, exactly. You mentioned before that when you turned 30, you decided that you were getting a bit stale. So you were gonna say yes to the three most next uncomfy things. Yes. One of them was being to join an evaluation contest.

SPEAKER_00 22:32

What were the other two uncomfy things that you well and the second one was actually the second into the settlements verifications team to manage that? So our chief risk officer, Ben Anderson, he's one I think you would enjoy talking to. He's very much a man who is after growth and after constantly looking at new ways to do things and improve yourself. And I think that's a really great attitude to have. And it's something that's really it's galvanized me, certainly. And he he called me up early February on Teams, and I thought, God, I'm getting fired, something's happening. There's the one on the C-suite's calling me, what's gonna happen? And he's just like, relax, it's nothing bad. And he mentioned there was an opportunity to for a second to manage the settlements and verifications team. They were going through a lot of change, just needed somebody there to support and and help. And that's what I really think management is. It is support, and it is people always think the manager's at the top, the team are at the bottom. It's for me, it's the other way around. A manager is there to be a support to the team to make sure they have everything they need to succeed. And yeah, so Ben hit me up for that, and he said he was only giving me like 12 hours to consider it because he knows I'm an overthinker. Um he's like, I'm gonna call you tomorrow morning, and and you know, I hope you give me a yes. And I was like, I think he could see my eyes were like deer in the headlights. So, you know, I did what I I normally do is I give my mother a ring because she's even even though there was a lot of unsolicited advice from her at a young age, she is a really good sounding board for me. And I gave her a ring, and she honestly just said, Look, what do you have to lose? You know, you this is you wanted to try something different. What do you have to lose? And then then I reminded myself, look, you're terrified of this opportunity, you're terrified to leave your comfort zone and try something different because you are afraid you're not gonna succeed. And then I was like, Well, damn, I'm gonna have to say yes now, aren't I? Because I promised myself if I was uncomfortable, I would say yes. So I I called him back up and I said, Yes, yes, I will do it. And according to my mother, my stars were in a good place for my career anyway. So even the stars were aligned. Um so I I said yes. That was the the second thing. The third thing kind of has happened, kinda, but I it hasn't really happened, happened. So I've done it, I can't disclose what it is. To a certain extent, saying yes to that Toastmasters conference was uh was could have almost been the third uncomfortable thing, but I thought that was cheating because I'd have to go there anyway to compete.

SPEAKER_02 25:12

Yeah. Nitmi, you obviously love evaluation contests. Do you have any other interest in any of the other contests?

SPEAKER_00 25:20

I think they all present different challenges. I have decided I'm going to compete at every single one of them. I'm gonna try. Once again, I'm not sure I'm gonna be successful because the level of speaking is so high at the club I'm at, but that's the best, that's the best thing. You've got to test yourself against the best. And I'm definitely going, uh table topics is my worst because I tend to jump in before thinking, which is not the best way to approach that. I'm still gonna force myself to do it because it will be an uncomfortable thing. And I am not gonna stop at three. I think the three was just a way to galvanize myself into action in terms of putting myself back into that growth phase, that growth zone. Every time there's an opportunity that makes me slightly uncomfortable, I'm gonna have to push myself to do it. I have an idea for the humor of speech competition. I'm gonna try it. I don't think I'm gonna win because we've got some pretty hilarious speakers at Auckland Toastmasters. But I think every time you compete, you learn, you grow, you get to see other people at that level. And I've also seen the benefit now of just, I never used to do this back in Varsity Toastmasters, but I've now seen the benefit of going to area competitions, to division competitions, other divisions as well, helping out whether they need a judge or a timekeeper or anything, but also just hearing other speakers, other styles. Every club's got its own little thing, you know. So I will definitely be making myself compete. Evaluation is still my favorite, but I think I love the challenge of the international speech competition, that the the challenge of finding a topic that's going to resonate with an audience, a wide audience, and then the speechcraft and delivery aspect of it. I think outside of evaluations, that would be my favorite one because it would force me in the act of even creating a speech for that competition to grow. And for that very reason, I think I would that would be my like second favorite. The other two are just a challenge because humor is hard to gauge who's gonna laugh, who's not gonna laugh. There's not too too much, I would say. I think the only thing I would say is a true evaluation nut in Toastmasters, where I think the real value you're getting out of that club meeting is that mentorship, is the feedback. I would really encourage any evaluator out there to seriously think when they're giving an evaluation, what is the true worth of those three minutes when you're up there to the speaker that is listening, to the audience that is listening? And if you take anything away from my experiences, take away what I learned from some of the great evaluators I've had I've seen, and that is to identify the what, the how, and the why in all your commendations and your recommendations. And you will find if you're not already doing it, it will seriously increase the value of the evaluation that you're giving to that speaker. You will show them uh like a blueprint guide on here's how I can apply what you've given me, and the audience, especially for the commendations, can think, oh, this person's done this really well, this is how they've done it well, and this is why it's important. I can take that away for a speech that I'm making that's similar to theirs. So I will leave you with that. I think if anything, that's the one message I'd I'd like to leave you guys with.

SPEAKER_02 28:51

Thank you so much, Nethumi. You've been amazing. And once again, congratulations on being the District 112 evaluation contest champion from New Zealand North. And thank you so much for coming on the show. It's been a pleasure for you.

SPEAKER_00 29:05

Yeah, thank you for having me. Thank you for having me.

SPEAKER_02 29:13

Thanks for listening to today's show. One of the key elements of Toastmasters is evaluations. This is how we grow and improve, both by encouraging comments for things we got right and points for improvement. We all learn and benefit from these evaluations, not just the person being evaluated. So any feedback in the comments is greatly appreciated. If you have a Toastmasters story you'd like to share or would like to be on the show, I'd love to hear from you. You can reach me at Toastmasters World Tour at gmail.com. Thanks for listening.