SPEAKER_01 0:00

I think there's probably more people out there like me who come off as very confident and very high self-esteemed and aren't necessarily truly that way. And these comments are the ones that stick as opposed to even some of the positive comments. So I don't think it's the person that says it, it's the comment. And I'm in the middle of coming up with a speech around what to say and what not to say to a speech contestant, whether they've won or lost or come second, because there's some pretty high-risk situations that you can find yourself in that that could potentially damage somebody or really knock somebody if you don't take for a minute and think what's happening for them.

SPEAKER_02 0:59

Hi, my name's Brendan O'Sullivan, a Toastmaster from Brisbane, Australia. Welcome to my Toastmaster's World Tour podcast. Please join me as I travel virtually around the world and chat to Toastmasters from different countries and all walks of life. Let's explore. I chat to today's guest, my advanced Toastmasters club mate, Heidi Hoink, who recently competed in three district competitions and was crowned the district tabletopics champion. Heidi shares her competition insights and also gives us reason to pause as she reflects on the potential impact of unsolicited advice immediately after competitions. Heidi, welcome to the show. I'm so excited to have you on.

SPEAKER_01 2:23

Thank you, Brenda. It's nice to be here finally. What's it taken? Three times, I think. We finally get there in the end.

SPEAKER_02 2:29

Oh, good things are worth waiting for, they say. Recently you won three out of the four possible contests at division level international, evaluation, and table topics. So first of all, congratulations. Thank you. That's amazing. That meant you had to turn around and prepare for three contests at district level, which is the highest level for both evaluation and table topics. So I'm interested in how you prepare for so many contests for one weekend and whether you prioritized any.

SPEAKER_01 3:07

Yeah, that's a really interesting question. I've been asked that a lot. I think the good thing about something like table topics and evaluation is there is not a lot you can do to prepare other than practice at club. Whereas international is definitely the one that I spend most of my time and energy on, really wanting to perfect that. One, because it is already a known speech, but also because it personally is the one that's probably most arguably the most special or important to me. But the other thing about the table topics one is that we're doing that all day, every day, impromptu speaking. So I feel like I am spending a lot of time preparing for that anyway.

SPEAKER_02 3:47

Sure. International is the, I guess, most prestigious, but it's the one that you can prepare for the most.

SPEAKER_01 3:55

Yeah, definitely. I don't I don't think the prestige necessarily interests me as much, though, as the opportunity to give the message, because international obviously is one that is to have an inspirational message. And for me, any opportunity I can share a message that may help somebody else, that's probably where my drive comes from for international. And that's why I probably spend so much time preparing for that one, because I really want to take that opportunity, harness it, and make the most of it. Because it's not every day you get to be up on a stage presenting to large audiences.

SPEAKER_02 4:28

And obviously it was an amazing speech. You came second?

SPEAKER_01 4:32

I did. I came second, which was amazing and also a little bit disappointing, I'm not gonna lie, because there is something about it that you do want to win, but I felt good at the end of that competition.

SPEAKER_02 4:44

Yeah, you left everything on the table.

SPEAKER_01 4:46

I did.

SPEAKER_02 4:46

Yeah. You say you want to help people with the message. Have you had any people that have given you any feedback in that regard?

SPEAKER_01 4:53

That's the thing that comes back after the competition finishes. So many people come up with so many, I'm gonna say the word interesting comments, but the comments that I love the most are the ones where people have been able to relate and they want to share their story or their experience that where my message has resonated with them. And I think that's the feedback that I really enjoy. I have also been given a little bit of feedback around how I can enhance that message, but for me, it's probably more important the one, the two, the ten that are potentially impacted on the day more than using that feedback to potentially win with that speech.

SPEAKER_02 5:34

Right. And does anyone particularly stick out that gave you feedback about how it impacted them?

SPEAKER_01 5:40

There were so many for this speech because I think I was talking about men and losing their identity essentially. And there was one particular man that came up to me and it wasn't a lot of words about my speech in particular. It was just the conversation that happened after it where he shared his own story. It wasn't exactly the same, but it just opened up a portal to be able to have a conversation that I wouldn't have otherwise been able to have.

SPEAKER_02 6:07

So it must give you good connections with people then too.

SPEAKER_01 6:10

Yeah. And that's the bit I love. I love the connections. I love the opportunity for somebody else to be able to open up and share, potentially open up something they haven't talked about for a while or something that wasn't at the forefront of their mind and being able to prompt something into somebody else's mind to actually be able to do what they want to do with it. I feel like that's a bit of an honour to be able to do that.

SPEAKER_02 6:33

Sure. So then you had evaluation was one of the other contested district. Was there any way you can prepare for that at all?

SPEAKER_01 6:41

Evaluation is actually probably one of my favorite things that we do at Toastmasters. I absolutely love evaluation at club, and then being able to obviously do it at competition just feels like an extra special opportunity. There's not a lot I could do to prepare for it apart from obviously practice at club. But I think the one thing I have found myself doing since I joined Toastmasters five years ago is I use that evaluation formula all the time. I've taught my kids how to use the evaluation formula. And I think I'm constantly preparing and practicing that in my everyday life now because it is such a natural part. I never perform an evaluation. My evaluations always come genuinely from the heart and from an authentic place. And I would never want to do a performance evaluation because I think they're just too important to do it like that.

SPEAKER_02 7:41

Right. So it's more about the person being evaluated than your performance.

SPEAKER_01 7:46

Yeah, absolutely. And and the lessons that we all can get from the feedback.

SPEAKER_02 7:51

And what is your formula?

SPEAKER_01 7:53

I always like to open with something relatable to the speech. That's my own, my own signature line to start with, followed by things I liked, obviously, and the examples. And then the recommendations. And I always like to be very gentle about those. And with the summary, I feel like the summary is important, but I like a summary that's again my own, not just retelling the speech, but putting in something that I've received from the speech that may or may not be relatable to the audience, but it is still a summary and it is still authentic. And I feel like that is something and that I like to do to really feel like I've given a good, solid evaluation.

SPEAKER_02 8:33

Wonderful. Then we had table topics. Can you tell me how you prepare for table topics? I know that you more or less said that you just practice a lot. Is there any other way that you can prepare for what you're about to be asked?

SPEAKER_01 8:48

I wish there was, Brendan.

SPEAKER_02 8:50

Even just mentally. Yeah, that's Is there any mental preparation that you can do?

SPEAKER_01 8:55

Well, I'm I'm not sure that there is because you just never know what question you're going to be asked. But funny story, at the district in that competition, just before that competition that I did actually go on to win, I was a complete basket case outside. I'd had a rough night, I'd been woken up at a crazy hour because of a a funny thing that happened at the accommodation that I was staying at. And I think all of the pressure, everything had just pretty much wiped me out. And I just needed to cry. So I went into the room where everybody was sitting and I said, Hey, can you come out with me? Can you just shield me? I just need to have a cry. And I literally stood there outside the room crying and just releasing. And someone said to me, No, Heidi, it's only table topics. And I laughed and I said, I'm not worried about the table topics. I actually just need to be here in my body and present, and I don't feel like I am. And so for me, that was my preparation. I needed to just get myself into the space of being present and in the moment and ready for whatever was coming because I didn't know what the question was going to be. But yeah, so it's interesting. It's not the conventional preparation, I guess, that you'd probably see.

SPEAKER_02 10:12

Did having a cry help?

SPEAKER_01 10:15

Absolutely. I think we all need to cry more, Brendan.

unknown 10:19

Fair enough.

SPEAKER_02 10:21

And you mentioned the conventional preparation. What is the conventional preparation?

SPEAKER_01 10:25

I would say there's some theories, aren't there? Well, I've certainly heard some theories around, you know, reminding yourself that you don't just necessarily do the first thing that comes to mind or that you you have a story ready that you can potentially mould whichever way, regardless of the question. I don't do that for table topics. I listen with intent of being completely open and then trust that whatever's going to come to me at the time when I go to speak is going to be the thing that I need to speak about that day. And certainly for the one that I won, I was really proud of that table topic because I managed to squeeze in a message as well, which doesn't always happen in a table topics. And someone even commented after, you know, Heidi, you don't need a message in your table topics. But for me, I like to use the stage and the audience and have that opportunity to impart something if it's possible.

SPEAKER_02 11:20

I love that. Yeah, I have heard advice that you can have like six or so different stories. I mean, it's a bit like the some people think that all children's stories are pretty much a variation on the same theme. And that you can then try and mould the question to the story prepared. To me, that feels like gaming the system. And it can sound a bit contrived, I think, if you try and mould it too much.

SPEAKER_01 11:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 11:48

Whereas your approach reminds me a little bit more of martial arts, having an empty mind and being just prepared for whatever comes, rather than any preconceived notions of what's coming your way.

SPEAKER_01 11:58

Yeah. Yeah, definitely. And I think authenticity, I feel like sometimes we we listen to people speaking and we're thinking about what we're gonna say next. And even for table topics, I very much just listen, even though I'm supposed to be thinking about what I'm gonna say next, it's very much a practice to be able to not worry about that and trust the process that I I will come up with something.

SPEAKER_02 12:21

Have you ever been stumped?

SPEAKER_01 12:23

A million times. I think that's also very natural as well. Absolutely. And there's some table topics I've walked away from and went, oh my gosh, that was terrible. But that's also part of it.

SPEAKER_02 12:36

Yeah, sure, of course. I mean, I think the one time I was not the one time, I'm sure it's been many times, but the one that comes to mind is when you at one of our club meetings hit me with the table topic that I was totally not expecting to have to do, and I was just like deer in the headlights again.

SPEAKER_01 12:53

Yeah, yeah. Very normal response.

SPEAKER_02 12:56

But if you had been stumped at district level, how would that have been?

SPEAKER_01 13:02

I'm a pretty quick thinker, and if I'd been stumped, I would have come up with something. Even if I literally looked to the right and saw a cup, I would have just started there. So I do, I do be ready to launch and pivot. And I think being stumped is very, very common in tabletopics. But I think the quickest strategy that you can use, especially at competition level, is to pivot and take it somewhere because there's always somewhere to take a tabletop picks.

SPEAKER_02 13:27

Fair enough. What's an example of how to pivot?

SPEAKER_01 13:30

Uh, so if they're saying, convince me that the sky is blue, you might be able to say, Yeah, I totally agree that the sky is blue, but let's talk about the grass because right now I've got nothing to speak about with the sky being blue. And I'm gonna tell you how wonderful it is to touch grass and how grounded you can feel. And yeah, and it's great to be laying on the grass with the sky above, and suddenly it will start to pivot and work in your favour.

SPEAKER_02 13:53

And then you might be able to tie it back to the original topic somehow.

SPEAKER_01 13:56

Possibly, usually actually, because it just buys that bit of time, but you're not eating into your time either.

SPEAKER_02 14:03

Okay, so let's walk through the actual day. You've had a cry, you've prepared yourself mentally, now you're ready to walk up on stage. You knew I was going to be your table topics chair.

SPEAKER_01 14:13

Mm-hmm. Actually, no, I didn't know that. I didn't know that. That was quite a surprise.

SPEAKER_02 14:19

When did you find that out?

SPEAKER_01 14:20

When you were there, I th well actually no, when I was outside waiting and I could and that I knew that you'd started the process. I was like, oh, okay, here we go.

SPEAKER_02 14:31

Did you know that the Table Topics chair got to choose the question?

SPEAKER_01 14:36

Yes, I did know that. From previous competitions.

SPEAKER_02 14:40

Yeah, and so when you saw me, did you have any notion of the sort of question I might ask?

SPEAKER_01 14:45

Oh, Brendan, I'm not gonna lie, I was a bit worried because we never know where Brendan's brain is going to go. You're incredibly clever, you're incredibly humorous, you're a little bit quirky. So you had me a little bit apprehensive, shall we say.

SPEAKER_02 15:01

That leads into my next question. I was going to ask you if it was a bonus because we're friends that you know me, or if it was more of a distraction, me asking you the question.

SPEAKER_01 15:11

I actually think it's probably more of a distraction because when you know somebody, you know a little bit, a teeny bit about their brain. And so seeing you, it was it was it it added an extra layer. What is this question going to be?

SPEAKER_02 15:27

Okay. Then I asked you my question, which was I know it's trivial, but it really bothers me. Can you remember what the first thing that popped into your mind when I asked that?

SPEAKER_01 15:42

I do actually, because I I didn't find it easy, but I I can get so hung up on so many trivial things. It was the problem was which one of these things am I going to choose as opposed to, oh my gosh, what am I going to say?

SPEAKER_02 15:57

And so there was a list of things that popped up. Didn't go with the first thing necessarily.

SPEAKER_01 16:02

I did go with the first thing. I I did because I don't subscribe to that notion that you shouldn't go with the first thing. I think sometimes the first thing that pops into your head is the one that needs to be spoken. And I'm glad I did. Served me well.

SPEAKER_02 16:20

But there were other things popped in after that that you then dismissed. Is that what you're saying?

SPEAKER_01 16:25

Well, no. So the kitchen bench popped in first. And then as well as that, some other things popped in about my kids and my husband particularly, because they were the they were all sort of the same theme, but that area of my of the house with the kids was the one that just stuck for sure. I thought, yep, that's it.

SPEAKER_02 16:49

I won't ask you to do the whole tabletopic speech again, but for our audience, can you give us the gist of what your response was? Because I'm sure they're going to be curious now that I've asked the question.

SPEAKER_01 16:59

Yeah, absolutely. It's trivial, but it bothers me, is definitely when my kitchen bench gets treated as a dumping zone. It absolutely drives me mad. For some reason, the kids and my husband think that it's the place where everything that doesn't belong should go. And I find myself like a screaming banshee trying to get that bench under control. And I think sometimes, and this was part of my table topic, sometimes we get so caught up in the trivia of it that we forget that it's actually ridiculous and we need to take stock and calm down and really think, is this worth carrying on like this? And at the end, I do remember asking everyone to scan their life and see maybe where they're being potentially trivial and could maybe let that go.

SPEAKER_02 17:48

Oh, I like that message. Did you get any feedback on that?

SPEAKER_01 17:51

Um, only that you don't have to have a message, which actually made me laugh. I thought, okay, thanks. I just won. Congratulations would have been fine.

SPEAKER_02 18:00

Who told you that?

SPEAKER_01 18:02

Look, I don't remember. And I think this is the problem with someone like me. And I think there's probably more people out there like me who come off as very confident and very high self-esteemed and aren't necessarily truly that way. And these comments are the ones that stick as opposed to even some of the positive comments. So I don't think it's the person that says it, it's the comment. And I'm in the middle of coming up with a speech around what to say and what not to say to a speech contestant, whether they've won or lost or come second, because there's some pretty high-risk situations that you can find yourself in that that could potentially damage somebody or really knock somebody if you don't take for a minute and think what's happening for them. But that's probably another conversation.

SPEAKER_02 18:57

No, I think if you're happy to share, I think that would be uh very interesting to delve into.

SPEAKER_01 19:05

Yeah. Yeah. So for example, after my international speech, there were a couple of people that I don't think they knew that I was listening, but then someone actually said it to me later that they indicated that the speech really should have been about me, because my speech, for example, was about my husband's story. And but it was about my name change. And that stuck with me because somebody did mention it later, or maybe you might want to think about linking it more closely to you so you can connect more with the audience. So the feedback was actually excellent, and it's certainly something I'll be taking on board. However, it was the timing. In that moment, I just needed to process that. I've just come second, and someone like me that thinks I only came second, oh, I did what did I not do good enough? Da-da-da, as opposed to the person who beat me was actually amazing and excellent and deserved that win. And I was probably up there and just didn't quite get there. I just needed to process the fact that I'd come second. But instead, what happened for me is that's all I could think about. Where did I go wrong? And it almost it didn't make me spiral, but it it puts you, it knocks you out of the zone that you probably need to be in. And that for me at that point, for me personally, was celebratory. I wasn't ready to analyse and get feedback. And I feel like sometimes those comments are so valuable. However, they probably need to come about a week later and say, Heidi, congratulations. Have you thought about this? And that happened multiple times with every competition that I went to. And being told, oh, they were just better, that's great. I know they were better because they won. I think sometimes it's nice just to be able to bathe in the fact that I did really well. Or if I came last, that I came last. And I want to be a bit sad about that right now. It's okay to actually feel how you feel.

SPEAKER_02 21:04

Sure, yeah, I get that. I think at Toastmasters, a big part of our whole Toastmasters program is evaluation. And so we do get used to giving feedback, don't we? But as you've sort of indicated, if someone gives a speech, you've got an evaluator, there's a set process there. But outside of that framework, it still becomes unsolicited advice, doesn't it?

SPEAKER_01 21:29

It can. And I don't think it's ever done in a way that's intended to land incorrectly, but sometimes it does. And I just feel like there just needs to be just a little bit more thought about is this the right time? I think it's always the right thing if somebody wants to encourage or support someone else to develop, get better, give feedback that's helpful. It's just around the timing, I think.

SPEAKER_02 21:55

Sure. And before you mentioned that there were Some things that could be a bit damaging even.

SPEAKER_01 22:03

Yeah, after district, I don't know if I don't think I've p spoken much about this to anyone else, but after district, I I really struggled to accept the fact that I had been in three competitions and that I had done very well in three competitions, obviously, with my first, second, and second place, which for anyone else, they should be absolutely jumping up and down, popping the champagne, going, Man, that's amazing.

SPEAKER_02 22:34

100%. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 22:35

Couldn't do it, tried really hard. And there was because I was too busy focusing on those little comments that had been well meaning, but had made I use them as a whip. I just focus on that and and it becomes quite detrimental to my self-esteem. Or and it's my own doing. It's not their fault at all. But I think people don't know where someone's at. Someone standing up on stage looks super confident. They look like they've got it all together, they're absolutely smashing it because they're getting a first, a second, and a second, but deep down they're thinking they're a complete failure. And people wouldn't know that. I don't expect them to know that. Sure. But I think we all just be m need to be mindful that we never really know where someone's at.

SPEAKER_02 23:22

100%. I hear what you're saying and I understand that. Do you have any guidelines that you'd set for people or what not to do after someone's been in a contest?

SPEAKER_01 23:32

I'm still working through this because I want to be very mindful, especially because the intentions are well-meaning. But I the big thing that keeps coming back every time I think about this and have been working on my speech is timing. I think it's not what's said, it's when it's said. And I have thrashed this around with one other person and I've suggested potentially at conferences or competitions, we have a piece of paper that if you really want to give feedback and you think it will help that person, have paper notes on the table specifically for that. Write it down and give it to the person and say, open this when you're ready. And they might open it straight away, or they might take it home and sit in a drawer for a week until they get through the celebration or they get through the sadness, and then they open it. And then that gives them the control back. And then it's not unsolicited advice, it's genuine, genuine, helpful feedback.

SPEAKER_02 24:27

That's an amazing tip. I wouldn't have thought of that. And I think it's going to be different for everyone. I think I'm such a curious person, I'd want to open it straight away.

SPEAKER_01 24:36

And that's absolutely perfect. And I think that's the whole point. Some people need that feedback on the spot. They need to be told, you know, it was you your speech was a nine and a half out of ten, theirs was a ten. And actually, that's probably one of the nicest comments you can give somebody when they've come second. I feel like that's really encouraging if it's genuine and authentic. Um, whereas some people just want, congratulations, you came second, and it was a fabulous speech. And some people do not need, oh, you came second straight away, you should do this, this, this, and this. Because they may not need that right then. Some might. Some might.

SPEAKER_02 25:11

So we've talked about things to avoid. Are there any guides on what you think people should do?

SPEAKER_01 25:16

Uh yeah, I think just read the person and maybe even before you because often people just launch into their evaluation. I think just stopping and saying, Congratulations, actually tuning into the person. And I know it sounds probably a little bit woo-boot-woo, but you can get a sense of how somebody's feeling. And and even just then asking the question if you're not sure, oh, I just want to tell you something. Are you okay to hear that right now? Um, I feel like that's also helpful. But if if there's feedback, I think, and especially if it's positive, that's probably okay to give at that time. I just think, yeah, it's not so much what's said, it's for me, yeah, very much when and how that's said.

SPEAKER_02 26:01

Thanks, Heidi. Getting back to table topics then. Uh do you have any tips for people that they can take home about how to get better at table topics?

SPEAKER_01 26:13

Yeah, I think I do. The one thing I did when I did table topics initially was always just tried to be a bit like it was a sermon, a sermon on the mount, where I was trying to preach a message. And the the part I've enjoyed doing a little bit more or testing out a little bit more with my table topics is trying to weave in a bit more of a story that then links to the topic and then has a a nice rounded summary. So I think there's lots of stories in our lives that we've got to share. And I think it's nice to be able to weave a story into table topics because it just makes it a bit deeper and a bit more interesting and keeps the audience following along for that that bit deeper and longer.

SPEAKER_02 26:56

Sure. And it's just a one-to-two-minute little mini-speech. How did you go with the timing? Is there a tip there?

SPEAKER_01 27:03

I was actually worried that I was too short because sometimes I listen to table topics and they feel five minutes long and they've only just come in on the two minutes. And I love those table topics because I feel like it's a skill to be able to get that much of a story and investment in a table topics. So when mine was a little bit shorter, I was a little bit worried. So my top tip would be don't be worried about that. I think it is what it is. And as long as you've met the time and hopefully gone over the time, the initial first time of the one minute, it's okay. Don't don't get too caught up in in the timing.

SPEAKER_02 27:39

District's over now. In a couple of days, we'll be ticking over into the new Toastmasters year. And a new round of competition, club competitions will start, area, then area, then division. Are you going to go in competitions again this year?

SPEAKER_01 27:55

Yes. I'm clearly glutton for punishment. No, I love it. I love it. I am going to do tabletops and evaluation because I do just enjoy those. I'm going to do international, but I'm just getting past something in myself right now, Brendan. And that's around the competition out there. I saw at District that competition is incredibly high.

SPEAKER_00 28:23

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 28:24

And the calibre of the competitors is amazing. And I'm trying to get into a space where I'm just able to go and give what I've got and give it my best and grow from my last year and grow my skill in my speech writing and my speech presentation and just do Heidi rather than worry about who I'm up against. So that would ideally see me doing international, but I am just in the middle of a little internal crisis with that at the moment.

SPEAKER_02 28:56

Something you've got to work through.

SPEAKER_01 28:58

Yeah, but I think international, and I also think I'd like to give humorous a go as well, because it's something I don't feel I'm very good at. I left it off the list last year because I just find doing two speeches at even at club, area, or division, which I have done multiple times over the years, is quite a lot. But I've got an old story that I want to rehash and and bring back to life. And I feel like I've learnt a little bit over the years from watching some really clever, humorous speech makers. So I'm I'm just gonna give it a go and see where I can grow with that.

SPEAKER_02 29:35

Oh, I look forward to that one. So four competitions, we might be seeing you in uh coming up in the competition season.

SPEAKER_01 29:43

At Club, Brendan. And the beautiful thing is I've been mentoring people from my club, and all of the experienced members in my club have been mentoring their people as well. And our club members are growing exponentially. Their skill level is improving so much. And I'm really proud to say that I'm quite nervous about competitions because it's gonna be stiff competition. So yeah, I'm gonna go in at club because I think everybody should compete at club. It's an opportunity to stretch yourself and grow and see where I go. If I don't get through to the next round, that's okay. But absolutely club and what happens after that, I'd need a crystal ball and I don't have one. So I'm just gonna throw my hat in the ring and see what happens.

SPEAKER_02 30:28

Do you think you're a competitive person?

SPEAKER_01 30:31

No, I really am not. I love the competition, I love the banter of being competitive. But if push came to shove, I would sooner bow down if I thought there was a higher purpose or a better reason for somebody to win. Um, and I say that not that I'm necessarily going to do that, although I have done that, where I feel like I've been able to give another club member an opportunity to compete at the next level. I have passed it on to them, even though I have won. Because everyone needs an opportunity to grow. So if I was competitive, I think I would just take it and run with it and say, well, that's my space out of my way. But yeah, I don't, I don't think I am. Obviously, I have I think everybody has some competitiveness in them. And yeah, I keep signing up.

SPEAKER_02 31:24

That's amazingly noble of you. I guess I was assuming that you were competitive because you are so successful. And therefore, my question was going to be, how do you feel about training up what is essentially going to be your competition?

SPEAKER_01 31:38

I love it. I I think if I can have someone who I've trained up compete against me, I think that's the absolute epitome of success, isn't it? It means that you've been able to do your job so well. And you know what? I'm having a little breakthrough right now because everybody I'm worried about competing against are the exact people who I'd be up against who have helped me to get to where I've got, and I'm doing that at at a different level. So it's interesting that that's come up today, Brendan.

SPEAKER_02 32:06

I think that's very noble of you, but also I don't think it's unique to you. I think that this is really the Toastmaster's spirit, isn't it? I've I've struck this again and again that people are so happy to help each other, and then they turn around and they're competing against each other.

SPEAKER_01 32:19

Yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_02 32:22

I think of there's a famous martial arts spoof movie I used to love called Kung Pao, and they had this one guy, Wimp Low, and we taught him wrong as a joke.

SPEAKER_00 32:35

Oh dear.

SPEAKER_02 32:37

So, you know, you could be a bit of subterfuge teaching the people that you're mentoring teaching them the wrong thing. Say lots of ums and ahs, and they love the ums and R's.

SPEAKER_01 32:46

Yeah, just just forget your speech halfway. That will get you lots of points. They love that.

SPEAKER_02 32:50

You'll you'll look vulnerable and they lap that up, you know.

SPEAKER_01 32:54

Never, never. No, I think Toastmasters generally are very friendly, friendly, kind people.

SPEAKER_02 33:01

Very generous of you, Heidi. It's been such a pleasure chatting today. Did you have anything else you wanted to add?

SPEAKER_01 33:08

No, I don't think so, Brendan. I just want to say I do really enjoy your podcast. And I I think these opportunities to be able to share and chat and then listen back to your other podcasts as well. It's it's it's a good thing, and I'm really glad that you're doing it.

SPEAKER_02 33:24

Really appreciate that, Heidi. Thank you so much for your time. It's been such a pleasure and an honour having a good friend like yourself on my show. Appreciate it.

SPEAKER_01 33:31

Brendan, thank you.

SPEAKER_02 33:38

Thanks for listening to today's show. One of the key elements of Toastmasters is evaluations. This is how we grow and improve, both by encouraging comments for things we got right and points for improvement. We all learn and benefit from these evaluations, not just the person being evaluated. So any feedback in the comments is greatly appreciated. If you have a Toastmaster story you'd like to share or would like to be on the show, I'd love to hear from you. You can reach me at Toastmasters World Tour at gmail.com. Thanks for listening.